The Tale of the Allergist's Wife starring Valerie Harper plays at the Shubert Theatre Jan. 14-26 only. So get your tickets now. Call (312) 902-1400 or visit the Shubert Theatre box office.
Following is our interview with Harper. Excerpts will also be on Windy City Radio.
AM: So, Valerie, why do you think the gay community has identified for so many years with Rhoda Morganstern?
VH: I'm not sure. I think she was very funny and very flamboyant in terms of having courage to be herself. And I do think in the Minneapolis environment (of the Mary Tyler Moore Show) she was definitely an outsider, and an outsider that was not quiet. (laughing) She was a New Yorker through and through. She didn't try to change her accent. She wore what she wanted. She called Mary, this very accomplished person, 'kid,' so that she would know that while she had a great hip measurement that she was not from the Big Apple. She loved her and liked her and so forth, but always had this edge of superiority somewhere in her that comes out of being told that she was inferior. So maybe there is some kind of connectedness (for the gay community).
She had flair and she had a wonderful sense of friendship. I think she and Mary and even Phyllis, you know, they were friends even though Phyllis and Rhoda were constantly vying for Mary's attention. There was a lovely camaraderie. I think women, gay or straight, really long to see women as not some appendage to a man or as a prop. This show was about the women.
AM: The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Rhoda both were revolutionary in that way. Was there a lot of pressure with that? And with all of your awards, Emmy Awards?
VH: Well it was wonderful. But we grew into it, Amy. This show, it was a case of little by little. When the show premiered in 1970 it was NOT a hit. It was just another nice show. People were tuning in and liking what they were seeing and thank God Mary had brought this wonderful credential from the Dick Van Dyke Show. People wanted to see her again. And here she was in a new situation and it was quite wonderful, really, the way we eased into it. And at the time, we didn't know there would be Emmy awards, and we didn't know that we were going to be a classic, and we certainly didn't know it would be so wonderfully received. Young kids even 10, 11, 9-year-olds today stop me on the street and say 'Oh, you're Rhoda,' if their parents have cable. They see Nick at Nite or TV Land. So it's quite amazing! You don't know it's going to have that kind of longevity when you are working on something. You just do your best. I really must give it right back to the writers. The quality of the material, the authenticity of the relationships—I think that's why gay, lesbian, straight, ALL people see humanity. They feel it. They get it in their solar plexus. They laugh.
I think maybe there was something inclusive about the show. I remember Jim Brooks never would allow cruel gay jokes in the show, which were around at the time. Or when things did come up on the show they were handled in a very human and natural way. He didn't want us speaking Yiddish either.
AM: Really?
VH: Rhoda. No. No. He didn't think it was necessary. He just didn't think it was good. Over-the-top 'Jewishness.' He said, 'You're Jewish. That's fine. It's good. We're not hiding it.' But you're a woman first and then it's your religion or ethnicity or your sexual orientation. You know what I mean? The human being is first. So maybe that's what the gay community, the lesbian community sees. That these are people being treated honestly and fairly and they can relate to it.
AM: Well it definitely set a model for sitcoms and television.
VH: What do you think? I don't know.
AM: Well, I think you sum it up entirely.
VH: Oh good.
AM: It's truly timeless characters that are with us for generations, as you said, from people that were in their teens and 20s in the '70s watching and those in their teens and 20s watching today and discovering it anew.
VH: I hope so.
AM: You have performed so many roles on television and on stage. These are very different forms, as anyone who has ever tried to parlay back and forth between the two knows. What about these two different forms delights you that makes you want to do a television show and then delve back into Off-Broadway, Broadway and touring?
VH: Well, I started in the theatre and we must always remember that before television, before filmmaking, before the old Victrola recordings, there were people performing for people watching. So on television it is a recording of a performance and the audience are viewers. In the case of theatre and the play I am bringing to Chicago, people are not just viewers, they are participants. It's not going to happen again just that way. So it's one-time only!
AM: Is that thrilling to you?
VH: Yes. It's very thrilling and it's tiring and you have to get your rest. There are a lot of challenges to theatre work. But the real excitement of it is those people at that theatre—it's an event! It's a moment. It's like a town hall meeting, a PTA gathering, going to church or synagogue. It's a political meeting. It's a gathering of the community. And those of us on the stage are telling a story, but those of us in the audience are very much participants. We're not just watching something that was created before and now is presented. This is happening in real time. That is the magic of theatre and any live performance.
AM: Currently, you are touring the U.S. in The Tale of the Allergist's Wife, which comes to the Shubert Theatre Jan. 14-26. Charles Busch, author of Psycho Beach Party and Vampire Lesbians of Sodom, wrote the play. Tell us about Marjorie, your character in The Tale of the Allergist's Wife.
VH: Marjorie was born in Charles Busch's most fabulous and creative psyche! He was doing a small piece with a character that he created called Miriam Pasim. Charles Busch is not what I would call a drag queen by any stretch of the imagination. He is an actor, a brilliant actor, and he is a gender illusionist. That's what I like to call it. Because he is not doing famous women, but he captures a certain thing from movie actresses of the '30s and '40s. He's not doing particular women. He just has his own women that he creates that are so incredible. This one, Miriam Pasim, was a well-to-do upper West Side matron who found refuge in what she felt was a failing life, quite mundane, by going and seeking culture. He (Busch) used to do this little monologue and the reaction he got was so spectacular that he realized that this was hitting audiences. For some reason this woman who should be happy and has everything is unhappy with herself and is living in that awful state for all of us, Amy, 'Could've, would've, should've.' You are far younger than me, but people can enter that state by 30, 40 and definitely post-50 people are saying, 'What did I do with my life?'
AM: Actually that comes with our birthday card at 30. The first of the 'could've, should've, would'ves.'
VH: (laughing) I wrote a book to that effect. You've got to resist that. You've got to enjoy 30, because at 40 you'll say, 'Oh my god, 30 was so young!' I'm looking forward to 70! I really am! Because I want to have said when I'm 70, '50 was quite active and young!' (laughing) But to get back to Charles, he took this character and just decided to expand it into a play. And (included) his experience with his Aunt Bell who is now reincarnated in this play as Frieda, Marjorie Taub's mother, who is just a dynamo!
AM: This is one of the funniest characters ever written.
VH: Isn't she a riot? It's his real Aunt Bell. So it is Charles' Jewish Bronx background. He was orphaned quite young, he and his sister, and he was raised by these aunts.
AM: You see where he gets all of his color (as a performer and writer).
VH: Exactly. Stuff that you think would just absolutely devastate the family with humiliation, he puts it on the stage and people are rolling in the aisles! He is really a brilliant observer of character and he is a fabulous actor. Maybe you have seen him on OZ (on HBO)?
AM: Oh yes!
VH: He is a genius, I think, and I love him. He is a dear, dear darling boy, that is my friend as well. I think he wanted to write about this message to get off the couch! Stop moping. Seize the day! This is who you are. This is what you have accomplished so far and don't let this moment pass by living in this state of non-acceptance. Which is a very strong message to the gay and lesbian community! It's really not the time to live our life because someone else will be more comfortable. I mean, the idea that the straight world would say, don't let us see you because it might make us feel … oh, what was it we used to say in the '40s and '50s? 'Go take a long walk off a short pier!' I mean get out of town! How dare you? The audacity to ask someone to curtail his or her life, so you'll be more comfortable! What happened to 'live and let live'? It always appalls me and I don't understand it at all. Anything that knocks that stance askew I love.
AM: Well this play definitely has someone that knocks Marjorie's stance askew. This woman, Lee, comes back into her life. What does this woman represent for Marjorie?
VH: It's classic playwriting from like Euripides and earlier. You have a situation into which an outside catalyst comes, shakes things up, and things are never the same again. I think she is Marjorie's past, when Marjorie was the prettiest girl on the block, and there is even the question as to some people's mind as to whether or not she is actually real or not. There is an enigmatic, mysterious feel about her. The thing is she has done with her life what Marjorie wishes she had. There is a real surprise where Lee makes some very startling moves and it moves Marjorie and Ira (her husband) into a different realm for themselves. I don't want to give away too much, but it's quite humorous and unexpected.
AM: Well now, I don't want to give away too much, but I do want to titillate a little bit. You and Lee share a kiss in this play.
VH: We do indeed.
AM: Have you ever had to do a same-sex kiss before?
VH: Oh sure, all the time with women. I mean, I kiss women all the time. I've kissed lots of women on the lips.
AM: But onstage in this context?
VH: Not in this way, no. I guess it is a first. I've been doing this show for so long though. It'll be a year and a half at the end of the tour.
AM: So it's old hat to you.
VH: Well it's not old hat … (laughing) … but it's fun and I love to hear the squeal of surprise from the audience when it happens.
AM: We ordinarily see stories where people in their 20s explore the boundaries of sexuality and attraction and desire, whatever that desire is—physical, emotional, spiritual. How does this exploration differ for an older couple such as Marjorie and her husband Ira?
VH: I think it is hilarious because they are so straight! And I don't mean just straight sexually. I mean when Marjorie says, 'Ira, it must have been our body language. We project an easy sexuality, Ira.' The audience goes crazy, because she has been reading too many Vogue magazines and fantasizing. But the truth is that's the humor. Their reaction to what they have involved themselves in is panic and they are trying to figure it out and that is part of Charles' incredibly sharp sense of humor. Kids do figure it out and it's not a big deal. BUT for these people, who have lived 32 years together and they have not cheated on each other, it's a funny situation. I don't want to say too much, because I want the audience to be thrilled when they come.
AM: And they will be! It's a hysterically funny play. But it deals with very complex thoughts and ideologies and universal situations. There's one moment, your character is talking about sexuality and she says to Lee 'I'm more intrigued by bisexuality on an intellectual plane. Vita and Virginia. Colette and Missy. We're more Ethel and Lucy.' I started thinking the audience might even exchange that for Rhoda and Mary!
VH: Oh That's true! That's true! Oh, that's funny! They might. They might.